Elizabeth ever heard of the pot calling the kettle black??? You are completely misleading using words like raid. Your interpretation is just that. Feel free to legally challenge. The private funding for Fullerton was met with open space money from the county. Play fair...

Further misleading "over whelming majority..". ... I would say 30 out of a population of 18k+ over whelming. The thousands that were not heard in Trenton yesterday is a little closer to over whelming. Finally, you are just a committee that makes self serving recommendations. You have NO authority over OUR money. It is not a scare tactic to say taxes will go up but a plain and very simple fact!

I agree Elizabeth, and thank you, Mark and all the other supporters for taking your personal time to follow through.

Thank you for this letter clarifying the issue.

Mayor Button knows that the interpretation of the Open Space Referendum used by the current council is at odds with the intent of the referendum and the intent of the town council which drafted the referendum. He is also well aware that it represents a clean break with past practice. Saying otherwise is disingenuous.

The question of whether or not the actions of the current council with regard to the use of open space funds is proper is a legitimate topic of discussion. The question may finally be decided by public opinion at the polls, by the force of public opinion, and or by the action of our courts. In the mean time Mayor Button and council should welcome an open and honest debate.

Sounds like the two sides of the political spectrum has started? Sounds like mark Hines and wife Elizabeth are starting a 2012'dems campaign? This is like watching ping pong. A fair majority of those green signs appear to be on dem lawns? This is getting interesting.

Thank you, Elizabeth! I now know that there are ethical, moral, sane people still residing in Moorestown. Sometimes I wonder about the mental health of individuals living in town. More often than not, one can easily determine that the general well-being and mental health of an individual taking a walk on a sunny day. More often than not, the average resident is terribly unfit. Besides being physically unfit, the person appears to be disoriented. These are clear signs of severe depression and dementia. Instead of worrying about and wanting synthetic fields, I would worry about the general health and well being of the members of our immediate community. Recently I was forced to stop my car and run out to give a resident in his late fifties to early sixties some Evian water. He was jogging, even though he was terribly unfit. His face was drained of blood, plus he was extremely disoriented and breathless. I have noted that there are more ambulances coming to rescue residents at night. These residents, becoming seriously ill, are between the late thirties to early sixties -- not individuals in their geriatric years. People are now under an enormous amount of stress, which causes catastrophic illness. Green space (open, undeveloped space) has been proven to relieve stress. People are losing their healthcare coverage, thanks to Governor Christie's cuts to the most vunerable within our community. The private insurance providers continue to raise the premiums and terminate coverage.

Thank you, Elizabeth, for your response. As a Moorestown resident who voted for the Open Space Trust Fund in 2007, I am quite shocked by the decision that was made. Artificial turf, paved lots, and scoreboards are not what I had in mind when I cast my vote. I find that putting things in larger scale often helps clarify an issue. As such, I feel like I voted for Fairmont Park and ended up with the Sports Complex in South Philly. While both are worthwhile destinations and both share the keyword 'recreation', I would hope it is clear that a fund to preserve one doesn't apply to the other.

There is an economic element to this debate that is being ignored by the MSOS and maybe Elizabeth, you can enlighten us. A couple of quick questions...how much is in the OS Fund currently? How much will be in the fund at the end of 2011? What are the current acquisition options being negotiated by the Township and likely to be closed upon in the near future? How much will the Fund grow to in 2012 assuming no acquisition? 2013? 2014? 2015? You must know the answers to the questions given how much you have invested in preserving the fund for acquistion only. One more question.....do yo know what effect fudning the KIDS Initiative will have on the Fund if it were to be approved?

For those who think the questions are a diversion or smoke screen to cloud the issues, the answers are public knoweldge.

Ugh, I will say people on both sides of the issue may sometimes bring negative light due to their comments. It is definitely on both sides though. I would like to respond to the person who said it seemed like a political issue. I am not sure how many Dems and how many Republicans have MSOS signs in their yards, I never checked. I can speak for myself. I am a registered Democrat and I do have a sign in my yard, not b/c I am a Democrat but b/c I am against the use of these funds for KIDS. I also know two of my neighbors who are registered Republicans asked me for a sign. They have them in their yards as well now. I do not think it is a partisan issue at all. I am a mother of two girls, one who is too young to play sports yet but the other played in her 2nd year of softball. This year we sponsored the team and we intend on doing so for the duration of our girls athletic careers. Both my husband and I played sports and we are very big supporters of athletics. I like the idea of fixing up the fields, I like the idea of making Moorestown better. I do not feel the funds taken from Open Space was appropriate. We are all allowed our different opinions, but when such a large amount of money is being used it never hurts to question it.

Wow this blog makes me laugh! Are you serious alum? Why not - I agree with you on this one. Are you suggesting some of these dems are nutty? I could only imagine that these discussions could go on during a town council meeting. Is nuts and booze what will be the talks in the next year? Hope not.

Kristen on the political issue we agree. I am a registered democrat who believes the money is there for multiple purposes... I think buying the Hess farm is one use and fixing fields is another. I don't think we are talking about that much money in respect to the account which is part of what is so hard to understand. Townships all around us are using these same resources for much bigger and nicer complexes. Unfortunately like anything there is no way to make everyone happy but we need to compromise. Honestly the KIDS should have asked for more rather than actual amounts then by accepting less they'd look like heroes....but there were extensive studies done over two years which resulted in the presentation given to council. I don't mean to imply that a simple recommendation equals a yes just because so much work was put into it but an outcry of stealing and raiding and mistrust is what I object to. In the end if KIDS doesn't get os money it must be for fair reasons. The os money belongs to the twp not os committee and we must find a way to compromise.

Whynot,
Please feel free to post whatever you like.

Does anyone know why people post anonymously? Is it that they do not have the courage of their convictions? Is it that they are embarrassed by their own opinions? Is it that they are afraid that their friends and neighbors will lose respect for them if they knew what they posted? Perhaps someone can explain it to me.

Thanks

KJL. what exactly are you insinuating with the age comment? Are you calling me old :)

Again, I don't claim to know the demographics of the people for or against MSOS or KIDS. I just know my own personal thoughts on the issue. My fear, is the use of OS funds is not being handled the way the voters interpreted the referendum in 2007 to be used for. To me it feels a little like a bait and switch. I could be completely wrong. (That rarely happens :) but I could be. I am big enough to admit it if I am wrong. I really think taking it to a vote would be a great idea. However that vote turns out in the end, I will be quiet and support it either way.

KB - I guarantee that I have more gray hair than you!!! ;)

if you are against the use becuase of the difference between the actaul wording of the referendum and the understanding of what some of the voters thougth tehy were voting for, i am not sure there is a finite answer. Ti believe that the bottom line however is that OS and acquistion AND KIDS can coexist and be funded from the OS Fund without adverselyu affecting our ability to aquire open space.

What compromise are we looking for? A limit to the amount that could be "raided" from the fund? Only monies "raided" from open space fund could be used for field maintaince only?
Any other suggestions?

If town council was worried about raising taxes for all of us Moorestown taxpayers, so they decided to use OS funds for KIDS, why did they raise their pay? It seems a bit contradictory. There seems to be a lot of talk about how town council wants to protect the taxpayers and be fiscally responsible, but I just don't have a lot of faith in that after witnessing them give themselves raises. Not to blend too many things, but they lost my faith a while ago.

Town council never raised their salary. They only make a stipend, say a few thousand a year to be congratulated or say scorned upon for making tough decisions.
Hey why not- isn't mcdonalds taking over that pocket park for beautification? Isn't demolition set for July 18th timeframe ?

Well, it's public info.. I believe four councilmembers make about 4K, mayor about $4,600. / year.
Perhaps those who run really have to love Moorestown!

Whynot

I am sure that you remember that the Camden Avenue Park Project was planned to create passive recreation open space. The property in question was purchased with open space funds and was to be developed for passive use as open space with open space funds. The artificial turf fields are planned for active recreation on properties not acquired with open space funds or for the purpose of passive recreation.

It was a loss to our community that the Camden Avenue Park Project was abandoned due to an intense misinformation campaign. I would note that the misinformation campaign was substantially waged by anonymous pamphleteering by persons who were more concerned with politics then our community.

@Watcher, to say town council loves Moorestown anymore than any other volunteers in this town is outrageous. Many people volunteer their time and DO NOT get paid for it. I believe my point was missed completely, so I will make it more clear this time. For town council to have given any kind of raise no matter how large or small sends an extremely bad message to the taxpayers, many of whom are struggling financially i.e on unemployment, houses sitting on the market heading to foreclosure if not already in foreclosure, need I go on with the examples? If town council wanted to really impress and REALLY love their town, maybe they could have passed on their stipend for a little, just to show some good faith. I know I do not receive a stipend when I volunteer my time, not that I would ever expect to, that's what community service is all about, helping the community, not getting paid for it. But, this discussion is taking from the issue at hand. I just had to respond to that silliness. It's absurd to claim town council has any higher "love" for this town then the rest of us.

Kristen understand your frustration but to be fair sometimes text doesnt reflect tone and in that way I read the comment somewhat sarcastic in that you would have to love what you are doing to take town council position. It is not a volunteer job. I would assume that most of your volunteering comes with thank yous as did your help at SB yesterday which came in the form of a mass email acknowledging your efforts. Appropriately so. I spent this past spring volunteering countless hrs coaching and if it were not for the amazing and thankful parents I NEVER would have taken that on. If they were as critical of me as we are of town council Id be on some serious meds.
The town council members seem to get torn from limb to limb by opposing views. Recently one of the members had their extended family attacked due to their position. I dont think it is appropriate to ask them to give back their stipend but would guess in one way shape or form they do by participating and contributing to so many other aspects of the town. The members of council are good family people who do what they believe is right for the town even when we dont agree. Gov. Christie raided the income of hundreds of thousands of NJ residents some of whom had retired and were promised that money for their years of service. While not popular some will argue necessary to turn things around. Personally 4K isnt nearly enough to do what they do.

This is not a political issue so people please stop with the R/D garbage. For once, can people cast aside labels and simply say what they believe in with the issue? Is that asking too much? Can you pretend, just for moment, that there are no political parties and simply state what you believe in from your heart (without the carzy concern for being called a conservative, a liberal, or a moderate)? Can you?

Ok ,eron the pocket park would have used 90K from that fund, right? Ok so as the former councilmember said you were for taking $90000 from the open space fund and th citizens were furious! Next, if we eval that lot..Almost 3 acres of irregular sloped lot between mcd's and m bagel. Update- mcd's will pay to fit out gardens and poss picnic area. That was something they wanted to do even when you were on council.

Here's what I think- (1) they are too many out of shape kids spending too much time indoors on video games and on facebook (also, too many parents doing the same) and they should be involved in something that gets their heart beating more than 12 times a minute, (2) in these economic times when open space is not as threatened as before (and may not be for decades), let's use the money wisely. I am not interested in it sitting in a bank account rusting, (3) allow the fund to be used for open space and recreational uses because both are in the interests of the community, and (4) let's have some financial disclosure instead of theortical arguments so we know what is going on. How much is sitting in the fund? How much does it grow each year through the taxpayers? How much has been spent over the last 5 years on purchasing property? How much has been used for other purposes over the last 5 years? For all I know, there could be $2MM in the reserve and we talking about $200K used for recreation, or maybe 75% has been used for recreation, which is really not the spirit of the law- have no idea. When we know the numbers, then there is more perspective on what is going on. Like anything else, there should be a plan which is adopted; however, it is only a plan, the "new normal" has changed everything and the plan should be re-visited with the goals adjusted to the changed conditions.

First Kevin is on to something when he said "it is political". Mark Hines did run as a democrat for town council in 2008 against the current members gbt. He lost by a fair margin. Now he and his wife Elizabeth step in whether agree or not, and start a "campaign" with lawn signs and website while around the corner from a possible run for town council next year in 2012. Yes assuming against the three incumbents gallo, button, testa.

Unfortunately MSOS isnt able or willing to share the numbers. Im sure KJL knows the answers to the questions but unless people hear them from Elizabeth they are not to be believed. I sincerely think if people actually knew the numbers they at they very least would be less angry if not embarrassed about how simple this whole thing really is. I hope that sometime in the next few days Elizabeth will read the above comments and KJL's questions and provides us with more discussion. I dont care if they are interested in running. The numbers are factual and there is only truth in sharing. No agenda can be manipulated by sharing the truth, and if in the end those facts cause the people to vote them in then so what.

Question: If the ones who voted to take money from the os fund were to return/ replenished the fund what would
Msos crows be thinking next?

The crows caw-caw-caw calls would be silent.

As a life long Republican I am truly embarrased with Mr. Button and The Republican Town Council.

Mr. Button should be ashamed with how he is divided Moorestown. Instead with leading with a majority he has lead with poor leadership and community building skills. Where did we go wrong?

What ever happened with private entreprise leading the way?

Instead, he has our taxpayers money spent on private sport teams. misusing the public trust with raiding the Moorestown Open Space Funds, and continuing to allow others to benefit from the Public Trust.

Shameful as a Republican.

I though We Republicans were "for less government", lower taxes, and allowing private individuals to fund their individual sports.

For 250 years Moorestown has had fine playing fields.

Ms. Miller should be dismissed if her Recreational Department is doing a poor job with managing our fields. Why is she not held accountable?

Ironically, very few people at Town Hall are held accountable these days for poor decisions, poor management and wasteful spending. Why is this so under a Republican administration?

We need a better Republican Leadership.

Mr. Why not.................

Funny, when asked to look at yourself, you go West. What is wrong with your mirror buddy?

Wait until you see your next tax bill with Our Republican Big Spending, Big Borrowing, Big Government interferring with the private sector.

Mr. Button is an embarrassment to all loyal Republicans. Poor Leadership. Laughable.

The Republicans are now sounding like the Democrats of yesteryear like Mayor Bloomberg. Perhaps if Mr. Button and his wife weren't so busy flipping houses in Moorestown, they wouldn't take the taxpayer for granted. Right across the street from my family's house, Mr. Button and his wife briefly moved into a small ranch home to make some home improvements like new paint, a new driveway, a flower bed or two, a little hut attached to the back of the house constituting an "outdoor porch," and not much more. Perhaps they put $20 to $30 thousand into the very small house. The Buttons lived there for a few months before selling an otherwise $325,000 [or probably less] house for a whopping $550,000 to an unsuspecting, naive, very young and attractive couple with two children. This young couple could have purchased a brand new two-story house near Collegeville, PA with acres of property, and most importantly, with much lower property taxes. For what one pays for one acre in Moorestown, one can own a new home on over ten acres of property. The property taxes in Moorestown are three and a half times as much as those in Pennsylvania. Where is all of taxes dollars going? No other state pays such high property taxes. There's no prestigious university hospitals or medical schools in NJ. We're all reduced to fleeing over the Betsy Ross Bridge into Philadelphia, if we become ill. Stealing money by flipping is one way to steal. Stealing taxpayer money is another. Both go hand-in-hand.

West of town meaning Lenola? Huh? At mcdonalds? Ugh that lenola visioning ? Or Lenola town center?
What your take for GOP in 2012 mr
Republican? It seems mr eron, mr Hines, perhaps Dave or Brian for dems?
You don't think gbt are all running again or you don't want them to run together,or at all?

I am responding to KJL's questions (and Ginger's insistence) about the financial effects of using Open Space Funds for something other than open space. Town Council appoints citizens to serve on an Open Space Advisory Committee (OSAC). The purpose of this committee is obviously to offer Town Council advice on open space issues. Mayor Button sits on the OSAC. On the issue of using Open Space funds for the KIDS initiative, the OSAC was unanimous in their recommendation NOT to do it! Since I do not serve on the OSAC I do not feel it is my role to present their specifics here. What is important for citizens to know is that Town Council NEVER ALLOWED the Open Space Advisory Committee to formally present their findings (which are the answers to KJL's questions). The Open Space Advisory Committee was forced to read their recommendations into the public record during the part of the Town Council meetings where anyone is allowed to come to the microphone and speak. I was at that meeting and my take on the whole thing was that Mayor Button knew the Open Space Advisory Committee's recommendation was damaging to the KIDS initiative. He (and two others on Town Council) did not want to hear what did not support the decision they had already made. So KJL, I will not do your homework for you. As you stated, the answers to your questions are part of public record. I will tell you though, that information damages the case for the KIDS initiative.

Wow, I've missed a lot. Thank you Ginger for noticing the thanks I got from SB, I feel appreciated :)
The rest I have to say will take too long. But I think the most thankless job isn't town council, I think parenting is at the top of the list and NO pay for that! If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.....so cliche" I know :)

Very nice response Elizabeth, by the way.

Actually the response was disappointing. You didn't answer a single one of the posed questions.

Heck no Ginger, I think many people should make a "paycheck", in a perfect world. The list of people/occupations that I feel should make a "paycheck" is very long. There are so many hard workers out there that don't get paid close to what they should. Especially now in our poor economic times, I see it every day. When white collar workers who have been jobless for so long and their unemployment has run out are so desperate they are putting in applications for delivery drivers at pizza shops. It is a scary time when families are struggling and parents are desperate to do anything to provide for their children or keep their homes. If it were up to my husband and me we would hire everyone that walked through the doors. I just got off the phone with a girlfriend who lost her job after being there almost 20 years. She is the sole provider for her 3 kids, one in college, the other starting in the fall. She is panicked. My other girlfriend also the sole provider of her household works 2 jobs, 6 days a week and barely making ends meet. These are educated women. Their jobs are much more difficult than any town council job I am aware of. No one likes to be under constant scrutiny, I get that. It was a part of the job description though when they ran for that position.

G.H. I apologize for not responding to all the things you stated earlier. I'm multi-tasking the best I can :) Regarding the comment you made about a family member of council getting attacked, I think that is horrific. Some people behave like animals, no matter what side of the argument they are on. That is an unfortunate reality. It's the same thing I tell my 7 year old when dealing with the kids on the playground, treat people the way you want them to treat you. There are rabid people on both ends of the spectrum.

I was raised in a very political family, my Mother was on every committee, zoning, planning commission, school board(not a committee), council woman, you name it she did it. She was ripped to shreds in my town b/c she was a science teacher. She did extensive work with NOAH and spent months on a ship in the south Pacific researching the ozone, she did a lot of work in Woods Hole. I am very aware of being judged while in a political position. Most people in these roles are family people. Last time I checked, I haven't made any judgments. You won't find me attacking family members of town council. I try to keep it clean and I try to behave like an adult. I may disagree but I will never be out of line. I still stand strong with MSOS. I have read many arguments against MSOS and I am still a supporter. I think the KIDS is a good thing, but I think we need maybe a year to review. There are some financial issues I think are not clear. If I am wrong, please correct

For me this issue is fairly simple: Is this use of Open Space funds budgeting genius or budgeting gimmickry? Whether the dollars for this project come from bonds, the general fund or the open space funds, it is the same council - our elected representatives - tapping the same tax base to fund a project that Council believes will have the net effect of improving Moorestown.
Personally, whether or not it is legal to use open space funds for this purpose, I think use of dedicated open space funds to build turf fields violates the spirit and the intent of the voters who created the fund and who have continued to support it. The creation of a dedicated tax stream and a dedicated fund (separate from the general fund) was done specifically to limit Council's latitude. But Council is not bound by the spirit and intent; they are bound by the law and by their personal convictions. For me turf fields should be paid for from the general fund or through bonding. If their is insufficient popular support for the higher taxes necessary to fund this project - however worthy it may be - then accept the limits of our resources and scrap the project. And if there is sufficient support for the higher taxes necessary to go forward with turf fields, then full speed ahead.
The balance in the Open Space fund is a different discussion. If the open space fund has "too much" money, the fund and the tax should be reduced or eliminated. We don't need to continue a fund that has served its purpose.

Our turf field was purchased through the general fund. No taxes were raised from that... Former republican town councils of course never raised taxes or above the rate of inflation (pre 2003). A few members of council were involved in the design of that park.
Of I

Hey Pete are you suggesting that Kevin KJL run for town council? You may have to run that past "mr republican" first. Ha! Who does he run with / against? Wow could this be Getting started sooner than expected?
Butmark and Elizabeth o read have a "campaign going on now??

Something stinks in Moorestown like the $1 million, which was spent on consultative fees to find out that it would be cheaper to knock down the townhall building than to repair it. That simple, prosaic info took $1 million of the taxpayers' money. No wonder our property taxes are so high. The FBI declared the state of NJ to have the highest level and amount of corruption in the country. The field in question is utilized by private children's sports clubs at the taxpayers' expense, when these private clubs should have purchased their own land on which to build their own private facilities. If one drives past the field in question, it is usually empty. If there are children playing on the disputed field, they are very few in comparison to those on the fields surrounding Moorestown High School. Very recently a lacrosse event was held on the field next to the high school - not on Church street - where children from nearby towns like Mount Laurel partook. The taxpayer is not obligated to pay for the facilities of children's private sports club facilites or any other provisions just like the taxpayers of Moorestown are not obligated to furnish children with the means to take private gymnastic and ballet lessons in various communities of South Jersey and Pennsylvania. It appears that some still have their hands in the till. Evidently, the FBI is correct in their assessment of NJ. Even in light of the economic crisis, malfeasance reins supreme.

Kristen - no offense, but your comments regarding how hard town council's jobs are versus your friends is misguided at best. You picked two of your friends who are mothers and the sole providers of their families and compared them to town council's jobs...apples and oranges. Just like the town council members signed on knowing that they'd be under scrutiny, your friends signed on to being mothers knowing they could someday have to be the sole providers...the difference is that town council is not a job...it's a volunteer position on top of their families and their jobs and everything else they do in their lives. So yes, signing on for town council and putting up with the scrutiny on top of everything else in a person's lives is, in many ways, harder than the average person who is struggling to provide for their family in this economy. Regardless of where you fall politically and whether or not you agree with MSOS or KIDS or anything, these people should be commended for at least stepping up and working at making the town a better place...much unlike any of the people (like Ed Carilli as a main example!) who get on this website or write letters to the Sun spewing misinformation and hurling insults criticizing good people's efforts to make this town better for us all.

KJL and Ginger Hayes (and others supporting spending taxpayers' scarce resources) are ignoring the very fact that general sanitation services in the township have been reduced or completely terminated. Have any of you seen street washing trucks cleaning our streets of late? We're down to one day per week for garbage collection, forcing most of us to keep the garbage containers outside for the flies and maggots. Then, there is the issue of increased sedimentation in the water, which has not been properly addressed due to lack of funding. We are inundated with so many vital issues, which require immediate redress, but the town does not possess the necessary funds. The idea of raiding Open Space funds only came about, because KJL and Button could not receive the necessary funds from higher taxation of the homeowners, which continue to dwindle due to economic hardship. Spending very rare resources not delineated for artificial turf, black top, and cement is irresponsible, if not dubious. Before long, the residents will be responsible for hauling their garbage to the county garbage dumps. Then, we will be responsible for processing our own sewage as our property taxes stay the same or increase. Spending money on artificial turf fields for private sports clubs is like a family of six (where dad was just laid off from his job) spending money on a new, huge RV with a Mercedes cab to go to the stadiums in Philadelphia to watch the games on the RV TV in the parking lot of the stadium.

Hey Joe welcome back! You are so right about town councilmembers role vs parents. The members are both! High demand, stress, and I must say if things go well, but both could also be rewarding! If all goes well, and most citizens are happy it could be satisfying. It all depends which each member puts into this volunteer position and how much stress they are able to deal with.

Hi Pete, thanks for your reply and your concerns, look for the best, tbd...

Maggots, that was a concern from a former mayor awhile ago, but this practice of one trash delivery started when the democrats were In power back in 2006

Readers, We love a healthy debate at Patch - part of why we're here is to give everyone a place to talk about town issues important to them. However, some readers are abusing the flag feature on comments. Flagging is for a comment that breaks Patch's terms of service, NOT an opinion you simply disagree with. If this continues, those readers' accounts will be suspended. If you have any questions, contact me at lauren.burgoon@patch.com. Thanks for reading!

Anyone that says they are a lifelong Republican or a lifelong Democrat need to understand that issues have no political parties, only solutions. It means they are narrow-minded individuals who automatically drink the Kool-Aid of a political persuasion that is filled with narrow-minded imbeciles- without a second glance.

Hey Bobbie is what you're saying is that someone who could be a lifelong conservative republican that is for open space? Or a liberal democrat that is for the kids initiative? What gives?

you make some good points. unfortunately the referendum when passed runs until 2028 and town has to levy at minimum 1 penny. they can levy as much as 6! Council cut this tax from 3 to 1cents a couple years ago, so even with that tax cut, the fund is going to be generating a lot of money, for several different uses until 2028. i dont think they can refund us..... which is why i think what some on council are suggesting makes sense. its not just that its directly allowed in the referendum that we all approved, but spending on rec and historic preservation will still be a tiny fraction of the millions spent on open space. there is no risk to our ability to get more open space- so why does one constituent group get so indignant? they dont lose anything in this but other equally deserving citizens are told that their needs will get done if current or future councils raise taxes? The county just gave us 250,000 out of their "open space" fund which also includes rec, farmland and preservation uses; so we can fund repairs at Fullerton park- is that wrong also?

TypicalinNewJersey: Correction - $3 million was paid to a very small group of men to conduct an analysis and assessment on the town hall complex. The town's people could have easily come to the same conclusion without paying the $3 million to a so-called "consultative firm." These men, consisting of the "consultative firm" are consequently receiving tax cuts from the federal government and reassessments on their multi-million-dollar homes to lower their property taxes - all paid by the average taxpayer (middle class) in the state of NJ. Meanwhile, the public employees are losing their workers' rights, pensions, and healthcare benefits - not to mention those people, who have been forced to become beneficiaries of NJ Medicaid due to illness and disability after being terminated by their former private healthcare provider like Horizon BC BS of NJ. Governor Christie just eliminated most of the NJ Medicaid benefits, so many in town will now be forced to find doctors in other states willing to take money from a Medicaid beneficiary's pocket for consultative medical treatment. The people in the South Jersey region appear to be just as corrupt as those in the northern and central parts of the state. Those, who charged the town $3 million should be held accountable.

How dare you spend my family's money on a $3 million consultative fee for analysis on the cost of repairing or knocking down and building a new building complex, which could have easily been performed by the people living in the town at little cost. Are the residents of Moorestown uneducated morons, who are incapable of telephoning potential contractors to make assessments on how much it would cost their contracting companies to either repair or tear down the old building to build a new building? A lot of the full-time housewives in town could have done the same job for next-to-nothing, esp. since many of these wives have degrees in law and other fields to qualify them in being capable of telephoning, standing around while the contractor examines the building and surrounding property, listen, and then, decide what makes economic sense, while maintaining the integrity of the land and potential structures (which will be placed on that land). There was no need to pay off a bunch of miscreants, who steal the taxpayers' dollars to in turn receive all types of subsidization from the federal and state governments in the form of tax cuts from the money they stole from the average homeowner in Moorestown. If these guys are doing it in Moorestown, they're doing it all over.

As for the Republicans in the state of NJ, they are finished in the state of New Jersey, thanks to Governor Chris Christie. Gov. Christie is an evil man. Nevertheles, how dare you make fun of his apparent physical disability. The man is apparently suffering from some form of mental illness, where there is a chemical imbalance in his body. Needless to say, one should not make fun of anyone's severe disability. Only in America can a person be persecuted for his or disability and/or infirmity. There will soon be a recall petition, but this has nothing to do with the man's apparent physical and/or mental debilitation. The man's debilitation has nothing to do with his ability to govern the state, while protecting the rights of the citizens.

I just love Gov. Christie for the evil things he is doing in attempts to save NJ from the brink of total failure. We need that kind of action at the local level as well.

From reading this I could suspect that it sounds ghat perhaps a town council member is in on this chat? Rather entertaining isn't it

As a life long Republican I am truly embarrased with Mr. Button and The Republican Town Council.

Mr. Button should be ashamed with how he is divided Moorestown. Instead with leading with a majority he has lead with poor leadership and community building skills. Where did we go wrong?

What ever happened with private entreprise leading the way?

Instead, he has our taxpayers money spent on private sport teams. misusing the public trust with raiding the Moorestown Open Space Funds, and continuing to allow others to benefit from the Public Trust.

Shameful as a Republican.

I though We Republicans were "for less government", lower taxes, and allowing private individuals to fund their individual sports.

For 250 years Moorestown has had fine playing fields.

Ms. Miller should be dismissed if her Recreational Department is doing a poor job with managing our fields. Why is she not held accountable?

Ironically, very few people at Town Hall are held accountable these days for poor decisions, poor management and wasteful spending. Why is this so under a Republican administration?

We need a better Republican Leadership.

Perhaps mr Republican should be more concerned with the mall and folks starting a liquor petition. What is that booze talk all about? Very concerning for moorestown! Pete said a referendum...the liquor one if allowed, should be analyzed very carefully, now that appears bad for Moorestown. Look at for our town first!

Ironic that Barney BOOZEMAN is yapping about a liquor referendum. What the hell is so bad about selling booze in town? It's not like no one drinks it, for God's sake. This ridiculous notion that a dry town is better somehow doesn't hold up. Look at Cherry Hill....it's not falling into decay because they let restaurants serve liquor!

Whoa Liz ...the town looses complete control. Short term fix or money influx not longterm, wow look how great our town is without liquor! Read the petition at the mAll, or their flyer, very concerning to the town not having much control over limited liquor. The town voted NO for liquor 4 years ago by a 2-1 margin.

Also Mr Boozer is right at the least being concerned what the "mall and folks" are asking in the petition. You could get confused and alarmed voting yes for the referendum. This is where if they get "enough" signatures town council better be very cautious in letting this go on the ballot. One question same subject as 2007, the other only good for a particular area in town, ie "only the mall" , huh? Why is that?

Sorry Fred....you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. It's not a one time influx of money...we will be increasing our business base and therefor our tax base, which is what we sorely need in this town. And I disagree completely that selling liquor will destroy the flavor of this town. Martin's liquors willl never come to Main St, and people will not be hanging around Thomas' if they are allowed to serve wine. I hope it goes to a referendum, and I will once again vote yes if it does. Only this time, I'll work with the people who tried to get the yes vote out. I just don't see the down side and I do see the upside. What are people afraid will happen????

Hallo Elizibeth.. How is it we use hell and God in the same sentence?
Not nice.
I guess that's like using liquor and Moorestown in the same breath. Yikes! (bad-liquor, God =Awesome)

In would vote for liquor if it were to stay at the mall area. Not a fan of main street option, but I understood that wouldn't be possible because liquor sales can't be within a certain distance from schools and churches...
Does anyone know the exact guidelines. I don't want to vote for the spirit of this referendum vs the actual facts. I wouldn't want to be blindsided like the OS people who clearly had no ides what they were voting for but assumed it was as they had hoped....
Will liquor sales be in the mall area only or is there potential for expansion?

Is the Moorestown Mall really Moorestown? What is, is a cash cow for the town, lots of property tax with virtually no services. Give them the booze. This town is surrounded by bars and liquor stores. Which means a drunk driver only has to cross the street in to our town and we still have to deal with him/her. Take the one time cash infusion and pay for town hall.

No utr.. For what was understood , either all moorestown has booze or not. Either the whole town is wet or dry. Not one certain area in town can have it and the other can. Utr don't fall into the swamp thinking it's ok for one area. If mall can have it, what about the other areas of town? Whether it has similar zone or not, not justified equally. The whole town for booze question can't come up again until 2012.

Concierge, are you sure about that? Why can't the referendum be written to include or exclude a certain area? I'm sure that is why it was voted down before. I will only vote yes if it is restricted with no loop holes. It must be clear. No more spirit or intended uses.... The os ref has taught us that I hope.

gH, the 2007 liquor referendum was for booze to be allowed in all of moorestown, not a specific zone. Strangely, the "mall and folks" have both town and a second for just the mall property for liquor. Both have possible problems,: the all town referendum has to have five years between last one.. It's only 4 years. The second one for mall only, is understood cannot because it's like "spot zoning" for a said reason. What about other areas in town with same zone (they could have a problem with this) also the supposed law stating the whole municipality is dry or wet not parts.
So therefore, if the above is correct, then the citizens shouldn't fall for this idea that one piece of property can have it while another, perhaps across the road or parking lot can't. Does it not too not seem logical?

Thx for clarifying... I am not in favor of open to all commercial zoning. It sounds like there could be a lawsuit in the making if a chain wanted to come in after the referendum is passed with the spirit of keeping it at the mall. Like OS the law doesn't recognize spirit or intent so we must be clear and very sure.
As to the five yr window, why is there a petition if there is no way it can be voted on until 2012..? I got an email requesting support with a two week window to get it on this years ballot??

Also, it will cost a lot of money to get a liquor license in Moorestown and if the township is allowed 5, they do not need to all be sold at once. There is no fear of everyone wanting one because even if they are zoned to have one, they have to be able to afford it.

Well said "Done Withit". I think people are fearing the unknown, so maybe getting a little education on the issue would be a good thing. Liquor licenses are not like locusts, to get one, especially in NJ, they come at a pretty high price. I do not see an issue with the entire town grabbing them up at an alarming rate.

Wow what lack of community you have. "done auth it and kb" you're argument is up for debate. The townwide liquor question is the same subject, so that has to wait until next year for that. And remember that question lost by a margin of 2-1, no small message there, the citizens said no by a big margin. Next liquor question is potentially a seriously weak argument that a certain property of only the mall in this case could have it. What about those in Eastgate, kmart, young ave, church at, new Albany all with same zone as the mall? It's all or nothing. No Scare tactics, just real awareness of the issue.

First of all FD, I think offering different opinions or ideas or perceived facts doesn't mean they are not for our community. Being snarky is not helpful.
It would appear that while thinking we have control sounds nice but I'm not convinced it is that easy. Again I go back to the OS folks. The law clearly reads that rec. fields are acceptable uses but because of interpretation differences our town is divided in name calling and erroneous accusations. For me the can be NO wiggle room in this referendum. I absolutely DO NOT want Liquor on Main Street. As to the affordability, the argument is actually counterproductive. Other than the tax income, the last thing anytown needs is yet another chain that can easily afford the fee. I think it is narrow sited to assume only fine dining will be an option. I also do not believe that this can be controlled by council. Which council? The one in place now? The one voted in next? That leaves a window for interpretation .... There is the possibility that someone who ownscommetcial property zoned the same as the mall would would sue for the opportunity to rent their space to a restaurant... Zoningprevents choice. It makes it clear what a property is capable of. I'm not convinced council has the authority to pick and choose.
Any lawyers out there know the facts???? I agree that we need facts, not opinions or desired intent...

Gh if most people were aware of this liquor plan they would be having similar concerns as you. There is more to the story.
Also a coue of people at the mall have stated A few times already to people inquiring about "fine dining restaurants" and they mall desk states "if we get this passed we would get Applebee's". Is that fine dining? That is a short drive to cherry hill and up for debate if that's fine dining. Just your point gh about chain restaurants. Also Johnny pizza entertainment another chain hasn't confirm if they are staying. Are they wanting booze as well now?
These petitions open a lot of questions. Who knows, could they find a lawyer that says it could work? What happened to the people? The town council now has to agree to place a petition on the ballot. Clerk to eval signatures are correct. It appears that future town councils would not be on record (another line in this petition) to make final stand that this go on the ballot. (like check and balance system). If town council members vote to put something on ballot they on record with the people.

No need to worry about a Liquor referendom....even if it gets on the ballot, it is an attempt to fix things so it will be voted down...just like everything else....our fields are a mess....our main street businesses are weak...the downtown parking is a joke...the mall is dying a slow painful death without better restaurants that require liqour licences...the municipla complex issue is beyond ridiculous...town council is severely divided and being undermined by a bunch of back door, politican wannabes....we are saving money to buy open space...while everything else falls apart..so let's get new xmas decorations and spend 100k on a 30 by 30 patch of land and commemorate a horse.....why hold elections and then not let the people elected do their jobs? why does every special intrest group demand a referendum?

Hey "yeah right" why so negative. The citizens need to look out for moorestown. Not destroy it with liquor. What have rc council done with Christmas decorations? Again thanks to Gina and Vickie for spearheading this that the previous council didn't do. "not let the people elected dontheir jobs"?? Yeah right , if those members are behind an issue that the citizens in the majority don't want or need, the peoe have the right to speak up!. Perhaps you know someone on town council or are on town council? Who are these back door political wantabee's?

'Destroy it with liquor'. That's laughable. Yea Right said it all...

So you think an applebees or johnnys placed in the mall would increase the tax base? Just another tenant.
We dint need the booze to save anything. It is a one time influx of money(debatable of what a liquor license would really go for, 100K? Then an annual license renewal each year. Then deal with all the nonsense that comes with it. And then, we the town want to back out of liquor, and can't . Once booze always booze! And very debatable that one property can have liquor and no one else. Yeah, iliquor could destroy the great community that we have. And we got number one town in America without the booze.

Front desk you're right we should not try to do anything to increase ratables or tax revenues in town. i hope you have an endless supply of cash because either your taxes are going to go through the roof or you are going to lose services then your No. 1 town will be worthless as will your mcmansion. Have fun with that. GH: You cannot sell a liquor license to an establishment on Main Street because of the many schools and churches in the area. There are laws that prevent this. And by the way, can we all stop clinging to that No. 1 town thing? You may have noticed that people use that to rebut everything that may mean change or progress in town. It was pure hype. And whether it happens or not, you can put a liquor referendum up to vote prior to 5 years if the wording is different.

Thanks. Good to know. I am still not convinced that council will be able to limit anything. I am not wholely opposed but the wording would have to be specific. Council's change and philosophy's change, the needs change and I just want to be sure about what "might be" because I have sneered loudly at those that did know what they were voting for with open space, I think its important to be sure of any loopholes however improbable.

It's interesting that some think we, residents, need to fix the mall's problems. It is up to the mall to come up with ideas that will work within the current restrictions. That's what capitalism is all about. But the mall hardly does their homework. They had council rush through a zoning change in order to accommodate Johnnie's Pizza, only to find out that they could not rent to Johnnie's due to games of chance restrictions. Sounds like they are throwing it all up against the wall to see what sticks. And just what is the problem with putting important issues up for referendum?

P squared: nice humor the first part of response, we could of been named #1 well before that.
Utr- if liquor could help then why didn't it help the echelon mall site? Voorhees is/was a wet town already and booze didn't come to the rescue there for which is the same mall owner. So for some /same idea of liquor is supposed to work here? At least here we still could say no, because once a wet town always a wet town , no turning back.
And Paul mentioned Johnny pizza amusement center at mall halted. Apparently some on town council late last year didn't do their homework on the "games of chance" law. JP won't make a final decision until November after the election? Is games of chance now on balllot too? If not are they wanting liquor now? What else next? What is this all or nothing this year? Are we rushing things?

Cherry Hill Mall's success is due more to location (proximity to Phila.etc) and density and income of its surrounding area rather than to liquor. Echelon did go down hill even with liquor. And the nail in its coffin was the kiddie attractions.

I like the term "Booz-a-nomics".......

Funny how no one understand the vote "NO".

Does no mean "NO".

Where is our Grande Republican Town Council...... Where is True Leadership?

So MrR if by chance in theory town council said they don't want the booze could they in theory block a referendum from getting on the ballot? Do we have a majority on tc that would go for booze at the mall? Could they stop it if they see flaws in the ref question? When do they go on record? What about these calls and emails that some here have stated ?

I found myself about to read about open space and see there is liquor discussions here. Interesting..is this a booze blog? My two cents are that liquor shouldn't be considered. We as town voted no last time, recently? Don't think it will be a cure all. In reading the front desk wannabes and mr revere , the same owner of all these malls couldn't find liquor to save echelon then we resdients shouldn't waste the time considering it.

utr - Voorhees didnt loose anything if the mall is still paying taxes, as it must be. If it isn't then it will be placed for tax sale and someone who really can make a go of it will purchase it. Why do we need to offer welfare type incentives to wealthy mall owners? The fact remains Echelon offered liquor and failed anyway. Liquor is not the answer!

OK, PR...so what IS the answer to a potentially declining or worse is appearing ratable?

That seems to be the mall owners issue not the town. What about the next door commercial properties? So ok for the mall owners not Eastgate? Or if the town somehow allows the mall to have it , then we have a legal snowball effect?
Maybe outlets at the mall? The arguments against liquor look proMoorestown. The info tossed around by the mall folk gives some to question.

Nice humor kl.. First from reading, it appears as a one time windfall from liquor license.. what is that 100K? Small change. Then 2500$ license renewal thereafter. Who really knows if we get much money and this "liquor plan" will really work. As the in keeper or whoever said, it could fail. You cant say let's try it out. Really I see once the town allows the liquor, we can't go back to dry town status. Bit as kl says what other non-liquor choices are out there? Sounds like the mall wants to start with a huge movie theater? Huh? Our problem is that we are too close to cherry hill, and it's an easy drive to any of those restaurants. Big theater?-Amc lowes cherry hill. And the argument liquor could work but couldn't at echelon mall has some weight. The mall owners should recognize that.

Last week the Mall wanted Johnnies Pizza, this week they want a large movie theater. If the rateable is declining it is their own fault! Echelon failed even though it had liquor. It doesnt make sense to change our town specifically for the mall when they dont even seem to know what they are doing. Unless of course they have something else up their sleeves they are not telling us.

Hi KJL& utr, I thought I was pretty clear that liquor IS NOT the answer. KJ - You like to toss out questions as though everyone has to answer to you and yet I dont believe you ever answered several of my prior questions. Liquor doesnt work in all instances, obviously. The mall can figure out for themselves what else would work. But up until now they have simply been throwing pooo against the wall to see what would stick. That isnt very professional on their part and they are supposedly the commercial real estate experts. And utr, the sky is not falling. Moorestown property values have held up much better than surrounding towns in this market. So you can keep going to the Berlin Mart b/c I am sure PREIT wont put one here, even though the management of the mall does seem to think Applebys is "fine dining".

Hey, what happened with Johnny banaas pizza center? I read in paper earlier this year that their doors were to open on October? I've shopped and dined at the moorestown mall a number of times lately and do t see progress or anything. Is their a hold up like town hall project? Johnnys entertainment center said no wine or beer but no now? Could someone confirm if this games of chance is on ballot or is this plan over? Perhaps johnnys wants the booze too?
Why not big stores or outlet stores ? Or a BYOB restaurant row with beautifully landscaped gardens waterfalls? Interesting concept.. Look more people drink wine than beer when out, at byob showcase dining is an idea.

Mtown Talker lists some great ideas for the mall, but utr - you seem to gravitating to the lowest common denominator in your prior posts. You list what is wrong with liquor after all kids are selling pot at the high school. And there are liquor stores just outside town so why shouldn't we have them too. I submit that is why we DONT need them! And now the Asian massage parlor?? Come on, I don't care where you find your happy ending. just don't drag Moorestown through the mud.

The mall should continue to look into other non-alcoholic remedies to deal with this issue. Look and create the BYOB Garden at Moorestown. have "upscale" restaurants in a byob row with courtyard with gardens. They could be attached to the mall but not direct entrance like cherry hill. Have a new fresh concept, instead of anotherchain restaurant. Perhaps various restaurants could host wine tastings and other functions. Next redevelop that movie theatre idea. That's a shot . Find a unique new concept for the mall rather than the same old chains. Surely, the mall owners can hire a consultant, who knows?

Based on population, or whatever the rule is, how many licenses can be issued in Moorestown?

What is the original selling price of such license? What is the annual fee?

Jersey Girl - So everyone who is against liquor is isnt educated enough? The pro liquor crowd had over a year last time round to get their point across. They had EDAC getting the word out for them. But by the time they actually got council to put it on the ballot the rest of us had only a few weeks to get our side out. Apparently it worked because the referendum went down by over 2000 votes, almost 2 to 1. Those 2000 people will be happy to know you deem them under educated.

JG Sure should be based on facts. But when the mall has something at stake is has a way of guilding the lily. Dont know who you spoke with, but I know of many who are stunned that the pro liquor group is ready to bring this back before the 5 year mark. What do you hope to add?

I guess I will leave you two geniuses to your smoochfest. utr - you waited all of 8 minutes after asking a question before you posted a smug remark that I could not possibly answer it. Just shows that neither of you are up for a debate Peace out.

Your perfect record of no answers is still intact. So much for debate.

Let's hear some suggestions of any non-alcoholic projects to help the mall. Any thoughts? As Pete said the mall needs to think outside the box. Let's say the mall somehow again got their way to have liquor referendum to vote and the people voted NO again. Then what's the back up plan? "the sky is falling" then Utr? Is this "all or nothing threats? It's disturbing this has come up again, but really what is the plan Nov 9th (assuming it even gets to the ballot) if/when it is defeated again?

Two weeks have passed, and still no answers....if our illustrious town council has already spent $250,000 of OUR money, citizens need some answers.....the D.A.D.S., er, excuse me... K.I.D.S, supporters continue to avoid these questions:

The top ten unanswered questions about the K.I.D.S. initiative:

10. What is the shelf life of the plastic rugs?

9. How does a scoreboard make the fields safer?

8. What are the maintenance costs of the rubber field?

7. Where is the budget for the maintenance costs?

6. If implemented, how long before it's deemed ïnsufficient to meet our growing needs""?

5. How many other phases are there?

4. What are the costs of these phases?

3. When will these phases be completed?

2. What's the plan when the rubber fields reach their shelf life? Bond for two sets of fields at the same time?

And the number one question that Moorestonians ask......

1. How will town council pay for the K.I.D.S. initiative?

Now ==== where are the answer to these important questions?

Is the booze thing a diversion?

Where is the real leadership in Moorestown.

So many summer fires, no solution.

Has any economy really benefited from selling booze?

How many No votes mean NO?

Mr republican needs some high fives
Town council what's to finance in two parts? Huh? Unless they are gambling the economy goes into a severe double dip recession and we could get better rates later? Why didn't we rehab them buildings ?
As for booze-I've had withdraw the petition and find a non alcoholic remedy for the mall. We have been to the mall and shopped and dined, get going and fix that.
Are we really getting back what we pay into with these high property taxes. No town hall, limited library services, very concerning

Funny thing when you borrow money - BONDS - you have to pay it back!!

It is not like a free tax bill which Town Council gets from taxpayers.

So, to get this borrowed money - da, you have to RAISE TAXES - unless you have some rich friends who owns banks.

SO, this two part installment program for TOWN HALL ( WHICH WE DO NOT NEED ) is an accounting gimick.... pure and simple.

MORRESTOWN - get ready for the train reck of HIGHER TAXES - in two part installments. How else can Town Council pay for a $25,000,000.00 building for 225 employees???????????????????????????????????????????

Why is not Mrs. Miller held accountable for the poor fields?

Isn't she responsible for the Rec. Program?????????????????????????????

I think she got a raise too last year...........................?????????????????????????

We'll slow it down for you...it's M-O-O-R-E-S-T-O-W-N. Maybe all the CAPS and ????????????????? got you confused.

Ok for one time only the situ is trying to be humorus. Don't think a ridiculous campaign of booze is too convincing. That could also bring higher taxes and problems. Let's rethink that liquor idea.

I think Mr Republican meant to say
NO BOOZE
In M-O-O-R-E-S-T-O-W-N. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Believe it or not, there IS a way to issue a bond to invest in our town's assets WITHOUT raising taxes....by using the club contributions, private donations/fundraising, and Open Space Fund to pay the annual debt service...AND the Open Space will still continue to grow and provide funding for future acquisition and preservation.

ARE WE ALL CRAZY....... ARE WE ALL CRAZY....... WHY NOT PUT THE TOWN HALL IN THIS CRAZY PLAN.... LET'S TAKE ON THE NATIONAL DEBT .... WHY NOT JUST TAKE ON THE ENTIRE EUROPEAN DEBTH.... AND GO FOR A HOME RUN... TAKE CARE OF THE UN WHILE YOU ARE AT IT.... FINANCE EVERYBODY WHO WANTS A LOAN..... HOW ABOUT ICELAND.... THEY DID SUCH A GREAT JOB.

The Situation is Pro-Booze. No worries, the sky won't come tumbling in on us all when it happens. Really, i promise. Make Moorestown wet! Re-open the Moores Tavern! Rise up all Ye Drunkards! Pull the dry folk into the 21st century with us! Prohibition is dead!

Gotta love the situ. I'm laughing and fell offend rocker ( no booze consumption) thanks for the odd humor.
The situ and utr have some common silliness that breaks things up a bit.
Now no booze - that is a serious situation

Imagine... the plastic turf today would read 110 degree?

Is that safe for our children?

Is that next to a sports bar? Plastic field watering hole

Awesome argument, 'everybody else is doing it'. We HAVE to keep up with them! Everybody else is selling liquor licenses, shouldn't we?? Can't do that! Can you imagine all the drunks stumblin around on the sidelines of our brand-spankin new field carpets?! Imagine the lawlessness of it all! Cars with drunks carreening down our beloved Main St., hanging out the windows with bottles in hand, bouncing off of parked car after parked car! The utter chaos! I'll never be able to sell my home when the time comes, the values will have plummeted so far because of liquor licenses. It'll definitely be the first question i'll ask of any prospective realtor upon moving to a new locale, "yea, it's nice and all, but this IS a wet town". Well, it's 5 o'clock somewhere!!

Funny comments. Look I think we could all say the 5 on town council are good people. While some may not lime their stances on the issues such as liquor, open space $, or kids, rubber fields, or whatever, most could agree no one on tc sounds like "Joe" or "Dennis" or "Donnie" or BAndG or similar.
Thane utr while most here are opposed to that liquor idea, the humor is tops in this arena. Perhaps the mall could use your expertise in comedy to promote their booze strategies? Have a good day y'all!

I may be funny but my position is defensible where none of the teetotalers here can come up with one reason why the town should stay dry.

Interesting way to communicate here. I think it is a obstructive idea to think of a "back up" plan if or when the liquor were to be turned down with people votes No, again.
Doesn't the mall or those "pushing" this idea again share that plan. Or as I read here too that as utr stated "the sky will be falling" the mall needs to be realistic in any approach and know there is a good chance that they may not get them liquor licenses.

I find it quite interesting that many posts are deleted, not because of offensive comments or rude behavior, but because the content does not agree with some of the other posters. Several of my posts, as well as others, like KJL, just vaporize.

Have fun folks, but be careful of the truth………..it hurts !